Friday, October 22, 2010

Another Case of "The Disconnect"

A fundamental difference in worldview:

no "creator" granted ANY right...rights are granted by governments...
Don't bother talking to this guy, he's beyond help.

What I would like is for y'all to read my stumbling attempt at explaining "rights" and see how I can improve. It's at the link.



Rauðbjorn said...

I think you 're both wrong. The last couple of paragraphs here tell you why. The long and the short of it is that the only Right is the right to try to survive by any means necessary, or die trying. Everything else is an artificial framework we construct and agree to live by in order to keep from murdering every simple schmuck that gets in the way of our trying to survive.

Linoge said...

Regarding what grants or creates rights, whatever they might be, the best arrow in our quiver is an honest reading of the Bill of Rights - the Founding Fathers made a point of saying that the government cannot infringe on a whole host of things, but nowhere in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights did they say that the government created those things.

Seems as though they rather predate the American government.

As for what those right(s) are, that is another matter entirely :).

Rauðbjorn said...

I do not dispute that the essential liberties guaranteed by the constitution must be shielded from the deprivations of penny despots and cowardly ideologies. It just irks me that incorrect language is used. It transmits a whole host of incorrect data unintentionally.

Look at every mouth-breather out their clamoring for their "Right" to free healthcare. Just because you call a bull a cow, doesn't mean you can get milk from it.

Conservative Scalawag said...

What the Progressives don't understand about the word Creator is that it could mean anything. It could mean God, nature, or anything you want it to.

But that these right are not giving to us by our fellow man,seeing then they could be taken away by them then as well. But, by a higher power, who endowed us with these rights,thus the right cannot take them away.

Rustmeister said...

Like they say, we don't have a "right" to someone else's efforts.

If we can't provide it ourselves, we have no right to it.

Crotalus (Don't Tread on Me) said...

Rauobjorn, God is my Creator, and Savior. As such, I believe the right to life includes the right to keep and bear arms, including firearms. My God gave me that right. The government did NOT grant me that right;my God did. Anything the government does concerning the Second Amendment IS AN INFRINGEMENT THEREOF!

Rauðbjorn said...

Crotalus, I will not argue theology with you in this venue. Leave it at your gods and mine are different and we'll leave it at that. If you want to discuss such things, come over to my blog and we'll try it.

The fact remains that an inalienable right is one that cannot violated or withheld. Felons cannot keep and bear arms, everyday people are murdered, and slavery is very, very real even today. So much for life, liberty and arms.

I do not argue that the guarantee of the liberties espoused in the constitution are of vital, fundamental import to our survival as free people and as a nation. My objection is to language used and the knee-jerk tendency to deify the document and the amendments as sacred and inviolate. We've seen once already how fascism can be written into the constitution. We must be careful not to allow it to happen again.

It's not so much that the government CANNOT violate your rights, it's that the government MUST NOT violate them. Under penalty of death.

"That whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness."

Crotalus (Don't Tread on Me) said...

All right, Rauobjorn, let's call them natural rights, my point being that we are born with them. They are not granted by governments, nor can they be legitimately taken away by governments. I agree with you that governments can (and routinely do) VIOLATE those rights, and infringe on it all the time. That's why nearly 200 million people died at the hands of their own governments last century. That's also why I think either a second American Revolution is imminent, or we soon will slide into Soviet-style slavery.